August 2003

August 8 2003

48 Liberals line up against same-sex

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/48-liberals-line-up-against-same-sex/article25288934/

Re-printed without permission

At least 48 Liberal MPs have publicly declared they are against legalizing same-sex marriage, the most opposition Prime Minister Jean Chrétien has faced from his caucus to one of his laws since coming into office 10 years ago.

A Globe and Mail survey of all Liberal MPs found 60 in favour of the government's proposed bill to legalize same-sex marriage, 48 opposed and 27 undecided. Twenty-nine refused to answer and seven could not be reached.

That Liberal opposition -- combined with MPs from other parties who are against the legislation -- throws into doubt whether the bill, to be decided in a free vote, will pass the Commons.

When opposition MPs are taken into account, both sides can claim roughly the same levels of support, with opponents holding a slight edge. That places passage of the bill in the hands of a clutch of undecided Liberals who are being arm-twisted by vociferous constituents.

Many of those who are undecided said they believe their constituents could accept a marriage-like, legally sanctioned union for gays and lesbians but they don't want to call it marriage.

"Although they're not opposed to same-sex unions, they don't understand at all why we would change the definition of the term marriage," said Yolande Thibeault, a Liberal MP from the suburban Montreal riding of Saint-Lambert. "It's the word marriage that's the obstacle."

Liberal backbenchers can break party ranks because they have been promised a free vote.

Cabinet ministers, however, are required to vote for the government bill to keep their jobs. But even they are not solidly behind the bill, the survey shows.

Natural Resources Minister Herb Dhaliwal, a senior minister, said he is undecided and must consult his constituents.

Fisheries Minister Robert Thibault, Labour Minister Claudette Bradshaw, Veterans Affairs Minister Rey Pagtakhan and junior foreign minister David Kilgour are also undecided.

But several other ministers refused to answer the question, a sign of the discomfort they face: Gerry Byrne, Atlantic Development; Ethel Blondin-Andrew, Secretary of State for Children and Youth; Paul DeVillers, Amateur Sport; and Jean Augustine, junior minister for multiculturalism and the status of women.

For the survey, reporters in The Globe and Mail's Ottawa bureau contacted the offices of all 171 Liberal MPs. Seven were out of the country or otherwise impossible to reach, while 29 would not answer or did not respond to repeated telephone calls.

Almost all the Liberal MPs are expected to gather for a three-day caucus meeting that begins Aug. 19, where many who have not met since the government proposed the bill promise an all-out confrontation.

To attempt to sway the undecided, Mr. Chrétien will argue for the bill when he meets the MPs, aides say.

"He's not going to preach. He's going to outline again what his position is, which is that there needs to be a separation between church and state, and that this is an issue of equality, and the government needs to protect the equality of all Canadians," spokeswoman Thoren Hudyma said.

"The Prime Minister will probably talk about the importance of the courts in the process. Also he's going to talk about the reality of the Charter of Rights."

In recent months, courts in Ontario and British Columbia have struck down the traditional heterosexual definition of marriage as a discriminatory violation of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and same-sex marriages are already being performed in those provinces.

The federal government chose not to appeal, and instead proposed a bill to legalize same-sex marriages. But first, the Supreme Court of Canada is being asked whether that is constitutional. Then MPs will be allowed a free vote on the bill.

On the opposition side of the House of Commons, the vote is also split, but largely along party lines.

The Canadian Alliance (63 seats) and at least half the Tory caucus's 15 MPs are expected to vote against, giving opponents 70 to 75 votes. Most of the Bloc Québécois and NDP, and some Tories, will vote for, giving supporters 55 to 60 votes.

Many Liberal opponents of the bill say they are simply responding to their constituents' views. They said they have been flooded with complaints in their ridings since the government announced the move in June.

"I even hate to go to the grocery store. People just grab you by the arm and say, what is happening up in Ottawa? They cannot understand why this is an issue at this time," said Rose-Marie Ur, MP for Lambton-Kent-Middlesex.

Some opponents argue that court rulings that struck down the traditional definition of marriage should have been appealed at the Supreme Court, however.

"We just laid down and said whatever the courts say," said Brenda Chamberlain, Liberal MP for Guelph-Wellington. "What about what the people say?" However, many who support the bill suggest the opposition is vocal but not the majority. Polls show a majority of Canadians -- 54 per cent in a June Ipsos-Reid survey -- favour legalizing same-sex marriage.

Others who endorse same-sex marriage say it is not a matter of public opinion.

"It is a fundamental issue of human rights," Montreal MP Marlene Jennings said.

The dissenters also note the government promised that same-sex-marriage legislation would not be introduced when the Commons overwhelmingly voted to retain the traditional definition in 1999. Anne McLellan, who was then the justice minister and made the promise, now supports the legalization of same-sex marriage.

Richmond, B.C., MP Joe Peschisolido, who was elected as a Canadian Alliance MP and switched parties, said he has received more than 3,000 letters, e-mails, and calls: and 80 per cent are against same-sex marriage.

Where they stand The Globe contacted the offices of all 171 MPs to ask whether they are for or against the government's drat bill to legalize same-sex marriage. The bill changes the definition of marriage to include all unions of two people, regardless of sex, but does not force churches to marry same-sex couples.

Those who said they have not chosen which way they will vote are recorded as undecided, while those who were out of the country or otherwise impossible to reach are listed as unavailable. Overall results

For 60

Against 48

Undecided 27

Unavailable 7

Won't say 29

-*****

Adams, Peter For

Alcock, Reg Unavailable

Allard, Carole-Marie Against

Anderson,David (Min.) For

Assad, Mark Won't say

Assadourian, Sarkis Against

Augustine, Jean (Min.) Won't say

Bagnell, Larry For

Bakopanos, Eleni Unavailable

Barnes, Sue For

Barrette, Gilbert Against

Beaumier, Colleen For

Bélair, Réginald Undecided

Bélanger, Mauril For

Bellemare, Eugène Against

Bennett, Carolyn For

Bertrand, Robert Against

Bevilacqua, Maurizio (Min.) For

Binet, Gérard For

Blondon-Andrew, Ethel (Min.).Won't say

Bonin, Raymond Against

Bonwick, Paul Won't say

Boudria, Don (Min.) For

Bradshaw, Claudette (Min.) Undecided

Brown, Bonnie Won't say

Bryden, John Against

Buite, Sarmite For

Byrne, Gerry Won't say

Caccia, Charles (Min.) Won't say

Calder, Murray Against

Cannis, John Against

Caplan, Elinor (Min.) For

Carroll, Aileen Undecided

Castonguay, Jeannot Undecided

Catterall, Marlene For

Caucho, Martin (Min.) For

Chamberlain, Brenda Against

Charbonneau, Yvon Unavailable

Chrétien, Jean For

Coderre, Denis (Min.) For

Collenette, David For

Comuzzi, Joe Against

Copps, Sheila (Min.) For

Cotler, Irwin Unavailable

Cullen, Roy Against

Cuzner, Rodger Undecided

DeVillers, Paul (Min.) Won't say

Dhaliwal, Herb (Min.) Undecided

Dion, Stéphane (Min.) For

Discepola, Nick For

Dromisky, Stan Won't say

Drouin, Claude For

Duplain, Claude Against

Easter, Wayne (Min.) For

Efford, R. John Against

Eggleton, Art Undecided

Eyking, Mark Won't say

Farrah, Georges Won't say

Finlay, John Against

Folco, Raymonde Unavailable

Fontana, Joe Won't say

Frulia, Liza For

Fry, Hedy For

Gallaway, Roger Against

Godfrey, John For

Goodale, Ralph (Min.) For

Graham, Bill (Min.) For

Grose, Ivan For

Guarnieri, Albina Against

Harb, Mac For

Harvard, John For

Harvey, André Unavailable

Hubbard, Charles Against

Ianno, Tony For

Jackson, Ovid Against

Jennings, Marlene For

Jobin, Christian Undecided

Jordan, Joe For

Karetak-Lindell, Nancy Won't say

Karyglannis, Jim Against

Keyes, Stan Won't say

Kilger, Bob Against

Kilgour, David (Min.) Undecided

Knutson, Gar (Min.) For

Kraft Sloan, Karen For

Laliberte, Rick Won't say

Lastewka, Walt Against

LeBlanc, Dominic For

Lee, Derek Undecided

Leung, Sophia Undecided

Lincoln, Clifford Undecided

Longfield, Judi Against

MacAulay, Lawrence Won't say

Macklin, Paul Harold For

Mahoney, Steve (Min.) For

Malhi, Gurbax Against

Maloney, John Against

Manley, John (Min.) For

Marcil, Serge Won't say

Marleau, Diane Won't say

Martin, Paul For

Matthews, Bill Won't say

McCallum, John (Min.) For

McCormick, Larry Won't say

McGuire, Joe Won't say

McKay, John Against

McLellan, Anne (Min.) For

McTeague, Don Against

Milliken, Peter (Speaker) Won't say

Mills, Dennis Against

Minna, Maria Unavailable

Mitchell, Andy (Min.) For

Murphy, Shawn Against

Myers, Lynn Undecided

Nault, Robert (Min.) For

Neville, Anita For

Normand, Gilbert Against

O'Brien, Pat Against

O'Brien, Lawrence Won't say

O'Reilly, John Against

Owen, Stephen (Min.) For

Pacetti, Massimo Against

Pagtakhan, Rey (Min.) Undecided

Paradis, Denis (Min.) For

Parrish, Carolyn For

Patry, Bernard For

Peric, Janko Against

Peschisolido, Joe Against

Peterson, Jim Won't say

Pettigrew, Pierre (Min.) For

Phinney, Beth Undecided

Pickard, Jerry Against

Pillitteri, Gary Against

Pratt, David Undecided

Price, David Undecided

Proulx, Marcel Undecided

Provenzano, Carmen Against

Redman, Karen Undecided

Reed, Julian Against

Regan, Geoff Won't say

Robillard, Lucienne (Min.) For

Rock, Allan (Min.) For

Saada, Jacques For

Savoy, Andy Undecided

Scherrer, Hélène Undecided

Scott, Andy For

Serré, Benoit Won't say

Sgro, Judy Against

Shepherd, Alex Undecided

Simard, Raymond Won't say

Speller, Bob Against

St-Jacques, Diane For

St-Julien, Guy Against

St. Denis, Brent For

Steckle, Paul Against

Stewart, Jane (Min.) For

Szabo, Paul Won't say

Telegdi, Andrew Undecided

Thibault, Yolande Undecided

Tirabassi, Tony Won't say

Tonks, Alan Undecided

Torsney, Paddy For

Ur, Rose-Marie Against

Valeri, Tony Undecided

Vanclief, Lyle (Min.) For

Volpe, Joseph Against

Wappel, Tom Against

Whelan, Susan (Min.) For

Wilfert, Bryon Against

Wood, Bob Against